Eileen:

Hello and welcome to Soul of a Leader Podcast, where we ignite soulful conversations with leaders. On today’s episode, Dr. Alicia and Dr. Eileen sit with Valerie Gobos to discuss balanced leadership.

 

Alicia:

Welcome to part two of Soul of a Leader Podcast with Val Gobos. We’re going to have a discussion about being a woman and business. I just think that it’s just going to be a lovely conversation. Welcome Val.

 

Valerie:

Thank you. And thank you for having me back, Dr. Alicia, Dr. Eileen, its a pleasure again. I love it.

 

Eileen:

Well, we are so glad our first conversation was full of energy and love and light and all this. And so now after we talked, we came up with this women in business and how women lead a little bit differently than men in business. I can start laughing because I know that all three of us have worked in industries where men are the focus. I’ve been in financial services and technology. And Alicia, I know you’ve been in some right?

 

Alicia:

Yeah. Municipalities. I could tell you right now being a woman in leadership in a municipality, I have some stories ladies.

 

Eileen:

And Valerie, tell us about your experience.

 

Valerie:

Well, I think the thing that I find fascinating is its kind of like the stereotype comes in and it’s kind of inbred in us. And I think that that whole imprinting of how our mother treated, or a father, or how you saw the role model of the man with the woman. And I think it’s just so important to break that in business and just say, “Look, we are all equal. We all here to do the job and to leave all that behind.” But it’s hard because I think sometimes it creeps in. People become a little bossy, maybe their mommy was bossy or just to keep it nice and balanced. And I think it’s a challenge.

 

Eileen:

Well, and I think and I’m sorry, Alicia, for interrupting, but I’m thinking when you say it’s a challenge and it creeps in, I think it creeps in both ways. I think it creeps in as me as a woman. When I first started, I was in a conference room and I was a VP and I’m there picking up cups, right? It’s just like, what am I… And one of my male colleagues says, “What are you doing?” And then it’s also how we hold ourselves with our peer males too. So, I mean, it’s both ways.

 

Valerie:

I know because even the man may have a hard time taking orders or having to listen to a woman because maybe they were brought up thinking, “No, no, no. The men are superior. The women are not.” And and all that stuff I think is inbred in us, and then it’s funny, I saw the movie Bombshell the other day.

 

Alicia:

Oh yes. I saw that. Well, a few months ago.

 

Valerie:

I feel like it was pretty interesting.

 

Alicia:

So one of the things that listening to you, I was thinking about, when you said sometimes men have a problem with women in leadership roles, when you have to really make a decision and have to give instructions to them. So the first thing came to mind when I was working at a client about six, seven years ago and was a public works director. And so in the municipality directors are, that’s VP in corporate America. And I could tell this man, he was not under any circumstance, taking any changes, any suggestions, anything from me. Now, there was a lot of dynamic there. I mean, I’m a woman, I’m a black woman. He was a male. It was a whole lot of dynamic and I could tell you, it didn’t matter what I said. It didn’t matter who was at the table. And in fact, another individual had to come with me to a meeting for me to tell him, to tell him what needs to change. I wish I could make that up, but it’s the truth.

 

Eileen:

So Valerie, do you have any stories or examples you can share in your career that may have been a learning for you or a learning for another in a non-confrontational way on how we work together, male and female, because we both have male and female aspects. There’s a feminine and masculine in everybody’s energy.

 

Valerie:

Yeah, I don’t think I’ve had any particular instance per se, but I felt it all around me. I’ve just felt it being somewhat of a sensitive person anyway, and then feeling, I kind of always know what the person is thinking anyway. And I find it’s been challenging, and I have to always remind myself too, nobody is superior, in any circumstance. And it’s always again, really, really interesting, I think, and it’s been kind of a challenge at times, but I think, always reminding myself and we talked about this last time, is just to be balanced and not to go too far on the other side, whether it’s kind of a confrontation or that moment with the male/female, with female/female, whatever the situation’s going to be.

 

Valerie:

I think, if we just stay balanced, but I’ve always kind of found it humorous, and in the workplace too, some people are fond of people. Some people aren’t that fond of the other person. Some people you can relate to, some people you can’t. But I think that the whole chemistry thing is always kind of interesting too. And I think what I’ve found again in my career, is seeing so many women who have gone out of their way to not be female and not be feminist and feeling they shouldn’t be feminine.

 

Valerie:

And even to the extent of wanting to look attractive, and again, instead of just being yourself and knowing you’re there to do the job, you’re not there for a beauty contest, you’re not there to look unattractive, so that you’ll then be more respected. It’s interesting. Yeah, that’s what I’ve found that by me sometimes caring about how I look, I get stereotyped as not being smart. Just that, I’m not blonde, but the dumb blonde syndrome that there’s stereotyping. And that was really unfortunate that I wasn’t allowed to express myself as a female and to be stereotyped as being not real smart.

 

Alicia:

It’s interesting that you brought that up because what I have found being in leadership roles and being a woman is, I never thought that I needed to downplay my appearance to kind of fit in. It was always for me not trying to be the center of attention . Okay, here’s a female, here’s a black female, dressed nice, they kind of measure… In my world, you would be measured how you look on the outside. Again, I was around athletes, celebrities, and then, mayors and now, and then so, that part wasn’t, I didn’t think about it that way.

 

Alicia:

But I also felt like I wasn’t able to say anything in a room full of men. It was just, maybe I don’t want to say it right now, but I’ll say it later when I have one of them one-on-one or something. Because most of the time, I was always the only female in the room, at a meeting. And then the other flip side to that was, they’ll forget I’m there, and they’ll say things, I’m like, “Let me excuse myself,” because they will forget I’m there, because I got lost in being in the room.

 

Eileen:

And Alicia, Mackenzie just came out with a study a couple months ago saying, and they interviewed women in management roles and asked how many times have you been interrupted when you’re sharing an idea and how many times has your idea you’ve shared the idea, and some male will repeat it and he’ll get the credit? And it’s very, I mean, this is research based. And what I found out is a lot of my male peers and colleagues and friends I know, didn’t realize they were doing it until that study came out and it went across the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times and all that. So, a lot of times, we come to the table and we’re competent, and everybody should come and be competent for the job description, no matter who you are, male woman, whatever, deliver, and just be respected. So that kind of adds to what you’ve just said about, the different styles, and there’s good and bad to both of it, right? We’re not perfect. Women are not perfect. And that’s why we’re opposites attract.

 

Alicia:

Yeah. But you just hit something. I mean, really, I can tell you, it was so many times that if I did speak up or was part of the conversation, if I thought of something or suggested something, you just kind of have a conversation and people just… And then the guy next to me will say it, and I’ll write in my notes, “What? I just said that.” And everybody, “Great idea, John. Great idea, Jimmy.” When I said it, it was like, “Oh, okay.” Seriously, I’m writing notes all the time, I have a pad and pen, right? And I would just say, “But I just said that.” On the paper, because again, you can’t really voice, “Well, I just said that,” and because then they all look at you, and, “Oh, you being a woman now,” or, “You’re being a brat,” it’s something to that nature. And so you really couldn’t say, “Well, I really said that already, but you guys didn’t say that was a good idea when I said it.” You really can’t do that in the corporate or business world.

 

Eileen:

So and Valerie you’ve been in the business for years. Why don’t you share, you’ve run your own business successfully as a woman business owner. Why don’t you share how you feel?

 

Valerie:

Well, I just kind of, I find it so fascinating. I think by nature, I’m a calm person. I’m not a pushover by any means, but I kind of allow people to be who they are if it means that much to them. But then if it crosses over into my integrity or my position, then I have to speak up. And I think that it’s really important to do things in a really nice, polite business type manner. I think a lot of times people in general can appear bossy. “You’re telling me what to do.” “No, no, no, I’m not telling you what to do. I’m just suggesting that this is a good alternative to the situation.” And it’s just so funny, again, dealing with so many people’s different personalities and all of us have been again, influenced by whoever raised us, whoever our role models were.

 

Valerie:

And hopefully all those people that have affected us, are a good influence on us. I always say to young women getting into business and stuff, pick out a role model. Pick out a woman that you really admire and do research on her and you tell yourself, that’s who you want to be. I want to be like that person. And I think that the MeToo movement that ended up surfacing a few years ago, was a really interesting phenomenon for all of us females in business, just to say, “No more. We are not going to be intimidated or treated accordingly.” And I don’t ever like to look at things like we were talking earlier, Dr. Alicia, we’re not bashing men by any means, we love them. But the whole thing is we are all the same. We are totally the same and we’re all here for the same reason is to do a great job in our business. And that’s why we’re working, right?

 

Alicia:

Yes, oh yes.

 

Eileen:

Absolutely. And doing a great job in your business is benefiting all of society and we all are connected. And I know that every single one of us on this call, on this podcast, has had wonderful male mentors, I have.

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Eileen:

I have, and still have.

 

Alicia:

Oh, yes. Yeah. And yeah, again, like I said about, it’s not about bashing men, it’s really sharing or seeing some of the dynamics of being a woman in leadership. Sometimes people will say, “Well, you really bossy?” “Well, I’m not bossy. I’m being a leader. I’m taking care of business.” So if I’m taking care of business, why is that being defined or looked upon as being bossy when I’m saying, “Hey, okay, let’s get this done. Okay, here’s what’s next.” That’s what I’m supposed to do because that’s that leadership in me. But, if you wasn’t taking care of business, then they said, “Well, you’re not doing your job.” So sometimes you’re like, “Well, what do you want me to be? Bossy or not doing my job? Because I’m not going to do neither.”

 

Valerie:

But then again, I think it’s that imprinting thing that maybe that gentleman who said that to you, connects, made that connection. If a woman tells me what to do, she’s being bossy. Maybe someone in his past was a female that was bossy, that he didn’t like. So it triggers that. And that’s why I think that whole thing of imprinting in our personal lives, you really have to watch that in your business life, because we take on the role of these people who raised us, who we grew up with, whatever, and you just have to leave all that at home. And again, look at the situation and say, “What is the best answer?” Like you said, it’s to be a leader at this moment and you have to speak up and we all do, and that’s not being bossy.

 

Alicia:

Right.

 

Valerie:

Right, exactly. It’s interesting.

 

Alicia:

Yeah. It’s a very interesting dynamic what we have to deal with and some people will be like, “Well, you just talking, women talking.” No, this is reality. This is really what happens. If I have to have a conversation with a man, I have to say, “Okay, how am I going to discuss this with this individual? What’s my approach? Am I going to come off too bossy to him, or will he feel that way? Do I need to be direct or do I have to come so soft?” So I always tend to say, I’m just going to be me and pray about it so I can have a good delivery. Hopefully that somebody who would not make me mad, but we have to think about our approaches sometimes. And I mean, that’s just the reality of it. It’s we are looked upon in business so differently than it is, if it’s a man in leadership.

 

Valerie:

Right. I know, and it’s more common in the business world for somebody to want to hire a woman who’s attractive versus women, if we were in a leadership role and we had to hire a man, we most likely would not say, “Oh, I want to hire him because he’s really, really handsome.”

 

Alicia:

That’s a good point.

 

Valerie:

Again, its that stereotype again of like, “Well, is she overweight? Is she in good shape? Is she pretty?” I don’t really rarely hear women saying that about men, “Is he overweight? Is he really handsome? What’s he look like?” I don’t know.

 

Eileen:

Well, and I think it all goes back, like Dr. Alicia was saying, “How do you approach it?” If you build a relationship and this is with men or women on respect, non-judgemental, know that people are coming to the table with the competencies they have and doing the best they can, and they wouldn’t be there, if they didn’t have the competencies. I think that would eliminate a lot of the pre-filters or prejudgments that we may project on others.

 

Valerie:

Yeah, those stereotypes.

 

Alicia:

Yeah. And you are so right, Val. Men would say that, because when I do [inaudible 00:19:42] “Yeah. How’s she look?” Well, if I’m a woman and I have to hire a guy, I’m not asking that question, how does he look? I’m like, “Can he get the job done?”

 

Valerie:

Right, Right, Dr. Alicia, does he have a nice body? I don’t know. I know it’s interesting.

 

Eileen:

Well, and that’s why I love Zoom, okay? I cannot tell you during this pandemic, how many people are being hired and having new opportunities, because we’re all working remotely in the business world, and people don’t know how tall people are, nothing. And it’s really working out really well, it is. And on top of it, people are being hired in roles almost anywhere because of their talent. So, it’s great that this is occurring and people are getting hired in new opportunities with Zoom because all they’re seeing is from your waist up, not even, and you’re sharing your competencies and you have to share, you sell yourself and it’s not other things. So, I think, it’s projecting more and more, less… What should I say? Less judgment because everybody’s on Zoom and that’s what it is.

 

Alicia:

Great point, Dr. Eileen. I didn’t even think about it that way because you are so right to Val’s point. They won’t be so quick to say in advance, “Well, how does the person look?” Well you’re on Zoom, you’re going to see how they look.

 

Eileen:

Well the other thing on Zoom, I can do my hair and makeup and put a nice suit on and have the coloring and maybe do the camera a little, I don’t even know who I am, right, sometimes.

 

Valerie:

I know, Oh my God.

 

Alicia:

All the lighting you could do now.

 

Valerie:

Yeah, I was just thinking the ring lights. We have the ring lights, the fake background.

 

Eileen:

Yeah, fake background. I mean, it is opening doors. It really is in many, many different areas, the Zoom. And we think about the time we’re in with this pandemic, we always say there’s blessings or lessons, or many people are being hit very hard, but there is some… When chaos comes there is opportunity and let’s hope we get more positive out of this, the negative and this is, people aren’t getting hired through Zoom.

 

Alicia:

Yeah. And you know what, here’s the thing I’ve been noticing, because I read, a lot of women are being hired now. And for whatever reason, I’m good. I’m good with it, because so often you wouldn’t see the type of roles or positions that these women are receiving. Again, you don’t really know how long they’re going to be there, or if this is all real, but I think this is just the season for women more than it was a few years ago. It’s just an impact of it happening. And I’m happy for that, for women, because we can make a difference. And I think, being able to be in a leadership role gives us ability to think different and just see things a little different from a male perspective. Not saying that their way is always the right way or the wrong way, but sometimes it does help to have that. I think Val said it, some type of balance in a decision or a role and just have a female perspective from it.

 

Valerie:

Right. I saw on the news the other day that President-elect Biden has chosen so many females in these positions, and it’s just so wonderful to see a man who is not threatened by having women making all these decisions.

 

Eileen:

And his wife, his wife is a doctor, she’s got her PhD and sets a good tone. And it’s just, I agree with you.

 

Alicia:

I agree. That really Val, to your point, that’s what I was reading. He hired, Dr. Eileen, his whole communication team is all female. I exploded reading articles. Like, “Look here, look it here.”

 

Valerie:

And look what that says about him though. It’s just says that he’s just looking for the talent and he’s looking to give people opportunities. He’s not this macho man that has to have the good old boys club, who’s got to be surrounded by all these men, and then have your token female in there, so it’s nice.

 

Alicia:

Yeah. Yeah. It was very refreshing to read that. For me too personally, it just said, “You know what, that’s giving me even more hope to say, ‘Wow.'” That’s to me, that was huge to see that at that level. And I said, that was big of him to do that. I mean, that was just a huge statement.

 

Valerie:

He’s not intimidated by the whole female thing.

 

Eileen:

No, because he’s, I mean, he’s got… What I like it is, there’s a balance there, in the President-elect of having strong women around him, right? And smart women around him and successful women. So, that relationship is already a foundation. So it’s just like working with anybody else, right?

 

Valerie:

Right. And I don’t want to talk about politics, but instead of having just really good-looking blonde girls running around in the background, so hopefully, things are really, really changing. And I think, back to the MeToo movement, I think that really, really made a lot of women strong and really a lot of women come out and just stand up for who they are and what they want out of life, and to not be intimidated.

 

Eileen:

You’re right Valerie, the younger generation. I mean, we’re not real old, but there’s people who are younger than us. They are out there making change, which I’m so proud of.

 

Alicia:

Yeah and I plan around that generation behind us. But, you know what? Time flies when you’re having good conversations, and as we get ready to end the podcast talking about being a woman in business, what are some words of wisdom, Val, that you would like to leave with the listeners specifically some of the women that are probably listening?

 

Valerie:

Well, I think it’s really just important to put things aside, any stereotypes that you have, look at people for who they are, for what they can bring to the table in business. Young people to have their mentors, do some research, look up to them, and just to be very confident that you can do a job and not need anything else to affect that, and really just know who you are.

 

Alicia:

I like the part of the words of wisdom as we get ready to close up. You just got to be yourself and you got to be strong. So yeah, you’re absolutely correct. You just have to be strong and confidence is really important. And I know we talked about having that balance and sound wisdom about what to do as a woman, because it could be tough. And then, like you said, you really want to have good partnerships or friendships with other women because it does help.

 

Valerie:

Yeah. And I think it’s the whole thing to be kind. And the beautiful thing too, to have grace about you, where you don’t need to overcompensate anything, and we’re back to being balanced again and just being a good person.

 

Eileen:

Valerie, with that, when you say balanced, we’re enough. We’re enough of who we are and value yourself, because we’re all here for a reason and we’re all here for a reason. And when you say balance, it’s just that means you’re graceful, like you said. We’re valued. And you know that you’re here for some reason. So thank you for sharing Valerie.

 

Eileen:

Thank you for joining us on Soul of a Leader Podcast. We are igniting a new way of leading with your soul and interviewing ordinary people with extraordinary impact. Thank you for listening to the stories of our leaders who will help and guide you on your leadership journey. For more information on our podcast, please visit our website at www.soulofaleader.com. Thank you for listening.