SOAL 15
SOAL 43: Leading with Ethics

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Rear Admiral. James R. McNeal is an adjunct professor and an assistant football coach at the United States Naval Academy. He is also co-author of the book, The Herndon Climb, A History Of The Naval Academy’s Greatest Tradition. Jim is passionate about doing good leadership and says it’s all about leaving the world better than you found it!  His leadership style is consistently strong and authentic. In this podcast, Jim shares the keys to powerful leadership. Leadership is very personal and to be a successful leader, you have to love people first.

 If you’re always trying to be something you’re not, you’re never going to be effective.

You have to know what you stand for, or you won’t stand for anything.

I don’t think you could be a good leader unless you love people.

I think leadership can be learned. But it has to be practiced.

You can’t be a good leader without being a good follower.

You’ll Learn

  • A solid foundation in leadership is loving people first.
  • Leadership and followership go hand in hand.
  • Leadership is ever-changing and personal to each individual.

Resources

Transcript

Alicia:

Hello, and welcome to Soul Of A Leader Podcast, where we ignite soulful conversations with leaders. In today’s episode, Dr. Alicia and Dr. Eileen sit with Jim McNeil to discuss leading with ethics.

 

Eileen:

Welcome to Soul Of A Leader. Today our guest is Jim McNeil. Jim is at the United States Naval Academy. He’s an adjunct professor, also an assistant football coach. He has years of experience in leadership, not only teaching it but displaying it. And we would like to welcome him to Soul Of A Leader. So welcome, Jim.

 

Jim:

Thanks. Really excited to be here with you guys today.

 

Alicia:

Welcome, Jim McNeil. We are so excited to have you on the Soul Of A Leader Podcast. And I know Dr. Eileen read your bio, and she probably didn’t even put a dent in it. Is there anything else you would like to add to that bio?

 

Jim:

Well, I’m an adjunct professor at the Naval Academy. I have been there coaching the lightweight football team since 2018. But this semester I was hired on as an adjunct. And I’m teaching Moral Reasoning for the Naval Leader to sophomores at the Naval Academy. And it’s an ethics course. But as I do in a lot of different situations in my life, I usually steer it back to leadership. It’s an interesting course. It’s a three-day course. The first day is a Ph.D. in philosophy with a specialization in ethics. And they do the more academic piece of the course.

And then I spend the next two days teaching these young Naval leaders how it’s going to be in the fleet, how it’s going to be in real life. And really trying to take the academic piece of this and turn it into reality, and talk about some things I’ve seen, talk about how I would handle some different situations. So the Naval Academy has given me so much. I’m a 1986 graduate, as is my wife. And I wouldn’t have anything in my life without my wife and my family. And so I owe it all to the Naval Academy. So if I can just give a little bit back by being an adjunct professor and pass on a couple of nuggets to these young midshipmen, I think it’s a task well worth trying to do.

 

Alicia:

Wow. Very impressive. Very impressive.

 

Eileen:

Very great. I mean, just wonderful. So my first question to you, Jim, is as you said, this mentorship. You’re training leaders for other people to lead. What is your summary or your definition of what you would call leadership? In an elevator speech, how would you do this? Because your role is so important. These are-

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Eileen:

… people who are leading other people’s lives in very high, intense situations.

 

Alicia:

Yes. Yeah.

 

Jim:

Well, I think to answer that question, and I get into this discussion on LinkedIn every now and then. And if you’re connected with me on LinkedIn, you’ve seen me weigh in. I think that there’s an interesting difference between leadership and management. I think we talk about-

 

Alicia:

Absolutely.

 

Jim:

… managers. “My manager this,” or, “I have to manage my people, and how can I be a better manager?” And what I always weigh in on is that leadership is about people managers … You manage people or you manage processes and policies, and programs, and instructions. You lead people. And when I look at leadership, leadership is about leading people. It’s about giving them a vision and then giving them the tools for them to get there. But have them get there to the very, very best of their ability. And part of your job as a leader, it’s multifaceted. But it’s trying to put these people in the best possible situations for them to be successful based on the abilities, and really their desires of what they want to do. And that’s really what the job of a leader is.

 

Alicia:

You sound like a college professor. And I’m shaking my head, those who can’t see me, because I tell my students that over and over again. Dr. Eileen and I teach at DePaul. And I taught at Concordia University, all business classes. And that’s one of the things I’ll always tell people. There’s a difference between managing people than leading people. Two different processes. But you need to know them both to be more effective in leadership. And you need to be more effective in management, so you need to lead. So they kind of combine in some facet of a person’s career. But talk a little bit about how when you in the classroom, and as Dr. Eileen said earlier, you have individuals who are just leading people every day in their roles in the Navy. Talk a little bit about what you do to challenge them to be their best in their leadership role.

 

Jim:

That’s a great question. And this course is, like I said, Moral Reasoning for The Naval Leader. And so what we really focus on is really decision-making skills. And what we talk to the students about, by the time I see a student at 11 o’clock in the morning, they’ve made many, many decisions in their lives about what to have for breakfast, what clothes to wear, et cetera, et cetera. But there’s going to be certain decisions that they’re going to make that are really, really important decisions, moral decisions. And one of the things we talk about is the moral thermocline. and that’s a term that was unique to the class. I hadn’t heard it until I started teaching this. But I think it’s really, really, a really interesting point. Which is, you have a lot of decisions.

And a thermocline is, in the water, it’s warm water over cold water. And when you go from warm water to cold water, you feel the difference. And that’s what sometimes you have moral decisions that have to be made. And so when you feel that there’s a decision that has to be made that’s different than a normal everyday decision, then you’re made to take a little bit more deliberate approach. And to your point about leadership, a lot of the times that has to do with leading people. And in a military situation, it might be,” I have to send this person on a mission where their life may be at risk.” Or I’m managing a budget. I’m doing something that involves a lot of money. But it involves more than just a basic routine decision.

And that’s really the leadership is, how do we focus on the difficult decisions, but also how do we have the foundational leadership principles that guide us through the difficult decisions? Because I don’t think as a leader, if you approach everything from a different perspective, you’re never going to be consistent. And so you have to have a kind of a moral and leadership foundation in order to make every decision. But certainly, those tough decisions have to be made from a very, very solid, solid foundation.

 

Eileen:

Well, thank you so much for that. I have a question. When you’re talking about that and the moral decisions and ethics, how do values align with this? Personal values, organizational values. How does that align with that?

 

Jim:

Great question. And really values are what … I like to say values are what you stand for, right? And so part of being a leader, and one of the things I talk about in kind of the keys to successful leadership is, leadership is very personal. And I think that’s one of the big misconceptions about leadership is that everyone is a leader. And you don’t have to be in a leadership position in your organization. If you’re a mother or a father, you’re a leader. You may be a leader in your church, you may be a leader in an organization. You may not even be … Everybody’s a leader in their own way. And you have to have a foundation of that. But that foundation has to be authentic. And if it’s not authentic, then people will see through it. And if you’re always trying to be something you’re not, you’re never going to be effective.

So to your question values, you have to kind of decide what you stand for. And I’m not going to tell either of you or anybody what they should stand for. I know what I stand for. And I know what my leadership principles are with respect to my foundation. But that’s where the values piece comes in. So as you’re developing as a leader, and you’re building your leadership style, you have to determine, “Hey, these are my values. This is what I value. This is what … ” Because what does value mean? It’s what I cherish. It’s what I strive to be.

 

Alicia:

Right.

 

Jim:

So when you look at values, you have to know what you stand for, or you won’t stand for anything.

 

Alicia:

Yeah. And I agree with you, values are so important. But they do help you align some of your morals, even your own personal mission or vision. So how do you allow the group or your students to bring faith into a shared vision? Obviously, everyone has their own level of faith or belief or just enthusiastic about what they want to get done when it comes to a vision. So how do you do that as a group or as a group of leaders, faith in a shared vision? How do you get them on one accord with that?

 

Jim:

Good question. And it’s actually … It’s easy at the Naval Academy because they are in the military. That may be something that people listening to this podcast don’t know. But as a midshipman, they have joined the Navy, and their rank is midshipman. And part of joining the military, in general, is you take an oath of office. And you agree to … And it’s what any elected leader, anybody that’s in government, anybody in the military has to take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. So that’s our shared vision. Now, what we talk about at great length, and one of the really fun things about this course is that there aren’t answers to every question. And the students will always ask me, “Well, what would you do?” Like I have the right answer.

And I’ll say, “Well, there are many different ways to approach this. But this is how I would potentially handle it.” But back to your shared vision, it’s to the Constitution of the United States. And that’s really what the focus is. And we talk a lot about, “Hey, you have to understand that there’s a civilian commander-in-chief who’s in charge of the military, that’s the President. And then you have your chain of command in the military. And they may ask you to do some things, and support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And they may not ask you your opinion of whether you think that’s worth it or not. But you have to understand that you have taken an oath.” And we talk about that very seriously, what an oath is. And if you can’t abide by that, if you can’t abide by following a legal order, or following the orders of the President, whether you agree with that President or not, then you really can’t be in the military.

And so from a leadership perspective … And the students get it. And so one of the things we really talk about when we go through these case studies is, you need to be able to explain this to the people that work for you, the young sons and daughters of America that have enlisted in the armed forces that you’re going to be leading. So what we kind of know, “Hey, I know you get it.” But you’ve got to be able to explain it to someone who’s 18 years old from say, Ukiah, California. Who comes from a much different background than you do. And you’ve got to explain to them, “Hey, we’re getting ready to fire missiles at this city in this country.” And you’ve got to explain why. And that’s why it’s so important for them to understand the moral aspect of what we’re doing.

The section we’re working on now is just war. So what is the justification for going to war? And then when you do go to war, how do you conduct it in a just and moral way? And again, we know we’re pretty confident that they know what that is. But we want to make sure they know it well enough to be able to explain it to the people that they lead. Because as a leader, if you can’t explain to the people that you lead, it doesn’t matter whether you know it or not.

 

Alicia:

Right.

 

Eileen:

Absolutely correct there. I mean, and more and more today, not only where you are at in the military, but in the workforce, authentic leadership is blooming because of what is going on in this world. And employees are seeing it. And they can tell when people are not transparent, and they’re speaking up. Because right now anybody can work anywhere. Talent will be the differentiator. So Jim, as we go back to what you said, you grew your leadership style and your purpose in life, and where you get the energy to share and spread the word about good leadership. As you said earlier, authentic, being truthful, transparent. Can you tell us a little bit about where that grew from?

 

Jim:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, first of all, I’ve always personally always been a people person. I’m an extrovert and I’ve always enjoyed people. Every place I’ve ever gone with a few exceptions, I’ve made good friends. So I really am a people person. And as I got into the military, I really saw … And really it’s interesting. I was on another podcast about my book, and they asked about the biggest leadership lesson I learned at the Naval Academy. And the biggest leadership lesson that I learned as a midshipman was what not to do. Because there was such poor leadership. And that’s one of the things that is a misconception as well, “I don’t work for someone who’s a good leader, so I can’t learn anything.” I think you learn more from a bad leader than from a good leader.

 

Alicia:

Oh, absolutely.

 

Jim:

And especially because I don’t ever want someone to feel the way I’m feeling right now. So I kind of … I wouldn’t say it was a crusade. But I witnessed such bad leadership that I really became passionate about doing good leadership. And as I rose through the ranks, not only in the civilian world but in the military world and I would get promoted, it was always exciting. Because I knew that I would have … The higher rank I was, the more impact I could have, and the more I could do. And the more things I could really fix. And Agape love is the love that God has for us. But it also, another definition is just loving your fellow man. And I don’t think you could be a good leader unless you love people. And I think if you say that in certain situations, “Well, I don’t love my co-worker.” Well, I’m not saying you romantically love your co-worker.

 

Alicia:

Right.

 

Jim:

You might. You might. But to be a successful leader, you have to love people as people. You have to-

 

Eileen:

Right.

 

Jim:

… not see them as objects, but see them as people. And we talk a lot about the issues going on right now are just people categorizing people, labeling people, and not willing to listen to them. But not even understanding the real basics that this is another human being. Yes, they voted for this person or they’re for this cause, or they’re not for this cause. All that’s fine, but they’re still a human being.

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Jim:

And they deserve to be loved as a human being. And I think in corporate America, they don’t do a great job of that. In fact, I think they do a lousy job of really emphasizing that in the leadership style. A lot of it is, “Hey. Okay. Here, take this course on leadership.” And it’s, “Do this, do this, do this, do this.” But if you don’t have the foundation, if you don’t love people, you can’t be a good leader. I’m convinced of it. And as you said, Eileen, with being authentic, people are going to see right through you. But the advantage of … Or one of the fun things about leadership is that it’s all you. You can be any type of leader you want. There are different types of leadership styles. I mean, there’s service leadership, there’s transactional leadership, there’s transformational leadership. There are Maxwell’s five levels of leadership. I mean, there are lots of different leadership styles. And you can do whatever the heck you want. And that makes it fun as opposed to, “Well, I’m not this type of leader. So I guess I can’t do leadership.”

 

Alicia:

I mean, you hit it dead on. And it’s love. And people don’t understand the value and importance of having just love. Love first, because just like you said it, if you love first, you can lead … You can have multiple leadership styles. Love is the foundation.

 

Eileen:

And that’s why we do Soul Of A Leader is because we know that we’re all connected by some type of energy. Each person wakes up every day. They want to innately contribute to the world and help others, hopefully. Instead of-

 

Jim:

Yeah, sorry. Go ahead.

 

Eileen:

No, go ahead. Instead of seeing people as just objects.

 

Jim:

Right.

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Jim:

Well, and the other thing is I don’t believe there’s such a thing as conditional love. And love in my opinion, since it’s my turn to talk. Love, in my opinion, it’s got to be unconditional or it does not love.

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Jim:

If you have unconditionally loved your spouse or your children, or your parents, or whoever you unconditionally love, or just love. You love them. Now, there may be things. My mom used to be famous for saying, “I love you, but I don’t like you very much right now.” That was one of my mom’s sayings. Basically what she was saying is, “I love you unconditionally, but there are things you’re doing right now that I don’t really like.” And I think when people say, “Well if you did this and this, and this, and this, I’d love you, or I’d love you more.” That’s not loving. That’s not loving.

And when you’re looking at love, and biblically it talks about, love is kind and love is patient, and all that. Love is all … And that’s really what it’s about. And I think when you try to say that in the corporate world in the workforce, people look at you a little sideways. Because I think the corporate world has just done such a poor job of really getting to the real basic foundations of what leadership is. And I think the other thing they don’t do is, you can’t be a good leader without being a good follower. And being good followership is also a learned skill. And they’ll say, “Well, I hired an hourly guy or gal to work in my warehouse to drive a forklift. Well, how are they going to be a leader?”

Well, they’re not going to be a leader, but you can teach them to be a great follower. So guess what? When you teach them to be a great follower, then they have a chance to move into a leadership position. Now they have the foundation. And I think that’s another thing in corporate America we don’t do a great job of is, leadership and followership go hand in hand. And followership isn’t just taking orders. Followership is being … I like to say I’m a very demanding follower. If I work for you, I’ll give you everything I got. But I am going to be super demanding. I’m going to push up to make sure that you’re giving me what I need to be successful. And that sometimes rankles people, “Why do you have to be like that?” “Well, that’s because I need you to give me what I need to be successful.”

 

Alicia:

Wow. I liked the part about not how to follow. Because a lot of times people just don’t know how to follow individuals. Especially when they’re leading in corporate America or different jobs for whatever reason. But I think it’s vitally important to know how to follow. And at some point learn from that leader. Whether it’s good leadership or bad leadership. So I like that. So in your role, how do you have the ability to have the courage to say what needs to be said? Sometimes people struggle with that. But how do you have the courage to say what needs to be said?

 

Jim:

It goes right back to love. And I hate to sound like a broken record, but one of the hardest things … And I saw this in the military, one of the hardest things to do is to tell someone … And I think in the civilian world also, is to sit down with someone and have a really honest review. Right? Because you don’t want to quote, unquote, “Hurt their feelings.” Right? I don’t really want to … Or perhaps be confrontational with someone and say, “You’re really not doing the best job that you need to do.” But what I like … The analogy is, what if they were your child? Why are you tough on your child? Why do you ground your child? Why do you … I mean, I’ve certainly yelled at my kids from time to time.

Why did I do that? Well, because I want what’s absolutely best for them. And that’s why I was tough on my kids because I love them so much. And if you don’t have the courage to tell people what needs to be done and how they can get better, are you really loving them to the best that you can love them? And I would argue, no. And you’re really thinking about yourself. You’re really being very kind of inward and looking at it as, “Well, I don’t want them to not like me, et cetera, et cetera.” And so I don’t even know if it’s having the courage … And I understand what you’re saying, and I’m not disputing that. But I would just say if you love someone so much you want what’s absolutely best for them. If they’re getting ready to drive off a cliff, I’m going to yell at them, “Don’t drive off that cliff, because I love you. Because I don’t want you to drive off the cliff.”

But some will say, “Well, I just … Yeah, Joe. Yeah, he just didn’t make it. And it happened for a couple of years. And everybody was kind of afraid to say something, then he got fired.” And well, is that what’s best for him, and now he can’t support his family? Is that really what’s best for him? Or was it better for you to have that hard conversation and say, “Look, you got to do better. You’re not going to make it.” And that just … That’s love.

 

Eileen:

Yeah. And feedback’s a gift. I always say that it takes courage to give it and do it. So before we close, I just wanted to ask you, tell us a little bit about your book. You talk to us about love and your leadership style. Tell us why you wrote your book and little highlights from it.

 

Jim:

Okay. So my book is The Herndon Climb, A History Of The Naval Academy’s Greatest Tradition. It’s available on my plug. It’s available on Amazon or the Naval Institute Press website. And the Herndon Climb, the Herndon Monument is a 21-foot obelisk, looks like the Washington Monument. It’s on the grounds of the Naval Academy. And at the end of plebe year, the freshman year for the midshipman, the monument is greased up with lard and butter and such. And they have to climb to use teamwork, to get to the top of it and take a plebe … A hat off the top and then put on an upper-class hat. So it’s very focused on teamwork. It’s been going on in some forms since the early 1900s. And its current form since 1959. What’s fun about the book is there are all sorts of different stories about not only how the monument came to be, but the different stories of teamwork.

There’s a chapter about the women in the 80s who were in the first class of women like my wife was. And how badly they were treated during the Herndon climb, and in other things. So it kind of goes over that. But it’s just a really fun book of stories. But ultimately it’s about bonding and teamwork, and team building. And what happens when you go through a shared experience, a 1,000 people go through a shared experience. And then spend a couple of hours kind of doing a silly tradition, kind of as a capstone event to their plebe year. So that’s why we decided to write it. I wrote it with a friend who I met… We’ve been friends since seventh grade. So it was really a great time to spend a lot of time with him.

He lives in California, I’m here in Maryland now. So we got to spend a lot of time interviewing people and writing it, and such. And I got in the last chapter is really my story of how I got to the Naval Academy and my plebe year, and the challenges I faced. And so it was kind of a chance for me to get my story out there. Not that it’s all that interesting, but certainly it was … Because people say, “Why would you want to write a book about that?” Well, because my plebe year was pretty challenging. When Scott, my co-author asked me, “Have you ever heard of this event?” He actually saw it on Sports Center and said, “Hey, I saw this thing about the Herndon climb. Have you ever heard of it?” And I said, “Well, of course.” And I said, “It’s the second-best day of my life after graduation because it was such a personal triumph to get through that first year at the Naval Academy.”

 

Alicia:

Wow. Very impressed with the book. I mean, I’m sure it took a lot of your time and emotion, and just your faith to pull it together, the book. So as we begin to … And we’ve been having a great conversation with you. Why don’t you leave the listeners with some words of wisdom?

 

Jim:

So I think as I hinted at a little bit, one of the really fun things about leadership is that it’s personal. And you can be any type of leader that you want to be. You can totally make it your own. But it’s difficult because it’s ever-changing. And any time you’re dealing with human beings, things can get rocky and go sideways very, very fast, as we all know.

So this idea of having a born leader, I don’t necessarily agree with that. I think leadership can be learned. But it has to be practiced. And it’s practice, practice, practice, practice. And if you are a successful leader, in however you want to measure that, I would measure it by the fact of, anytime I’m in a leadership position where I’ve been successful, I’ve measured it because I’ve gotten so much more out of it than the people that I’ve led. Then I know I’ve had a successful leadership experience. So to me, to have one of those successful leadership experiences, if they could bottle that as a drug, they couldn’t keep it on the shelves. Because it’s literally intoxicating. So I’m passionate about leadership. And-

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Jim:

… really it’s just about giving back and just leaving the world better than you found it. And that’s really what it’s all about. And once you kind of figure out what type of leader you want to be, go be that leader. We need more leaders in this world, for sure.

 

Eileen:

We do, Well, that was wonderful.

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Eileen:

Thank you so much for sharing your words of wisdom. And we’re so grateful that you’re on our show.

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Eileen:

All the wonderful wisdom that you shared, and the attributes around leadership, and-

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Eileen:

… your story. Thank you, so much, Jim.

 

Jim:

My pleasure.

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Jim:

[crosstalk 00:29:09] to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.

 

Eileen:

Thank you for joining us on the Soul Of A Leader Podcast. We are igniting a new way of leading with your soul. And interviewing ordinary people with extraordinary impact. Thank you for listening to the stories of our leaders who will help and guide you on your leadership journey. For more information on our podcast, please visit our website at www.soulofaleader.com. Thank you for listening.

 

With Dr. Eileen & Dr. Alicia

Conversations with ordinary people, with extraordinary impact on strategies, success stories, spirituality and leadership.

With Dr. Eileen & Dr. Alicia

Conversations with ordinary people, with extraordinary impact on strategies, success stories, spirituality and leadership.