Alicia:

Hello and welcome to Soul of a Leader Podcast, where we ignite soulful conversations with leaders. In today’s episode, Dr. Alicia and Dr. Eileen sit with Stephen Patscot to discuss going through the chaos with God.

Eileen:

Hello, and welcome to Soul of a Leader. In today’s episode, we have Stephen Patscot. He is a partner and human resources practice leader at Spencer Stuart. He is responsible for leading Spencer Stuart’s North America human resources practices, where he advises CEOs and CHROs on their talent needs. Welcome, Steve.

Steve:

Well, thank you very much, Dr. Alicia and Dr. Eileen, it’s my privilege to be here, a little bit humbled and you guys have had some really, really great guests lately, and I will try to meet or exceed the bar.

Alicia:

Well, Steve, we are so excited to have you on Soul of a Leader, and we know that you will be able to do your best because I looked at your LinkedIn and your bio on the internet, I’m pretty impressed by it. And so I want to start a little bit about because all of us are into this HR world or industry, Dr. Eileen and myself, what did you see right now as the huge transformation or change that is probably either needed or required for HR leaders during this pandemic?

Steve:

I’ve spent 30 years in HR. I grew up in GE, and one of the things we always talked about was something that I think is every bit as relevant today. And we talked about it in terms of balancing people’s advocacy and business partnership.

Alicia:

Wow.

Steve:

And if you think about the pandemic, there’s a huge need for people advocacy. You think about everything that’s been happening with the whole social justice stuff. There’s a people advocacy part, but at the same time, you’ve got incredibly complex business challenges that are happening at a stunning pace of transformation. So for HR, it’s making sure that you are balanced, that you are not leaning too hard left or too hard right on that pendulum.

Eileen:

Thank you so much for those comments. And as Alicia and I are both in HR, right now the item I am discussing with other HR leaders and I’d like to have you share your insight in here because you are networked heavily with global CHR Officers. You know that business and people advocacy in a time when making decisions can change someone’s life, meaning opening an office, having people exposed to COVID, people getting sick. What are you hearing about the stressors or impact on HR and their fuel tank, right? As dealing with this, because this is… They’re making some potential life and death decisions in some situations?

Steve:

Well, first of all, it’s an excellent question. There’s a lot of nuance to that question. So before COVID, I always used to tell CEO’s, “Look, the HR job is a very hard job.” And sometimes they would laugh at me a little bit and say, “Well, it’s not harder than the CFO or the CISI or…” And I would say, “Well, bear with me, let me make the case that it is harder because you serve five constituencies in this role. The board, the CEO, the C-suite, the HR function, and then all of the employees and everybody has different needs at different times.” And anyone of those groups could derail you, throw you under the bus and so [crosstalk 00:04:28].

Alicia:

Yes.

Eileen:

Oh my gosh, yes.

Alicia:

Yes. I’m like nodding my head [crosstalk 00:04:34].

Steve:

He started with the assumption that this was a really hard job before, then you throw in, “Hey, we’ve got this thing called a pandemic. There is no real playbook. You need to get everybody home and then figure out if we can pay them.” And what I have noticed, to answer the question specifically is, if you think about what do I do all day, every day I talk to one or two people. Ahead of HR or somebody looking to hire a head of HR. And so, I have never in… I’ve been doing this for about 10 years and talk to hundreds of people every week, never seen more stress in the system.

Alicia:

Yes.

Steve:

And it’s largely because so many issues in HR are what I would call between the cracks, and there’s no natural owner in the organization. So the CEO says, “Well, that’s your… Eileen, you need to fix that. Or Dr. Alicia, that’s yours.” Like we have no answers, so, therefore, it’s your problem. And so the ambiguity and the gray in dealing with that… When are we going back to the office? Well, I don’t know. Nobody knows. Well, how do you answer all these questions? Who answers them all? HR has to answer them. So the fact of the matter is that what was a hard job became incredibly difficult.

Alicia:

Yes.

Steve:

And some people like military analogies, some people don’t like military analogies, but it’s like you’re at war fighting a tough enemy. And then another enemy attacks you. How do you sustain battles on multiple fronts simultaneously? And the term VUCA, Volatile, Uncertain, Changing, and Ambiguous is a term that gets thrown around a lot. And sometimes if you’re lucky enough, you got a little bit of training on VUCA leadership, but we are in the max VUCA moment right now.

Alicia:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. And listening to you and earlier conversation I had earlier with an individual and she was asking about my HR background and I kind of painted a picture. I said, “20 some years ago, HR was different and they went through this transformation of just automating.” And I thought that was kind of bad then, because fast forward now it’s not as much about being automated. It’s about stepping up to the plate as you said and you’re fighting so many different things. Just like Dr. Eileen said earlier, sometimes it’s a life or death situation. If you bring people back and then here you go [inaudible 00:00:07:34]. If we bring them back in, what does the culture look like? And so, one of my questions to you after that is how do you help navigate some of those CEOs that have those cultural issues of how do we prepare the office if we do bring somebody? The stress level is high. And I also believe you too, when you say everything is always on the HR leader’s back, and people don’t realize that.

Steve:

I think it’s moments of truth, where your value… We get [inaudible 00:08:08] around as HR professionals for, “Hey, we want a mission statement. We want values. We want purpose. We want all these sorts of things.” And why do you want those to serve as a compass and North Star during moments of truth? And so if we say people matter and we say safety first, then if somebody is uncomfortable coming back, we can’t shame or scold or nudge them like, “Well everybody else is coming back. What’s wrong with you?” And I think that right now, what you’re going to see is it’s a horribly overused word right now, but it’s the ultra hybrid model of everything. There’s going to be people that are just really not ready to come back. There’ll be people that will abuse the ability not to come back to work. And then there’ll be people who are dying… I think about our office and our teams and people and… We’ve got the pendulum ranging from the minute the office opens, I’m going to be the first person back in because I love the energy. I love the people.

And even if there are fewer people, I’m coming back to… I’m going to be the last person and until everybody’s safe, there’s a vaccine… You have to respect the desires of [crosstalk 00:09:36].

Alicia:

Yes.

Steve:

… because ultimately it’s about trust and psychological safety. Because even if you’re back in if all you’re doing is worried about getting sick or being on… You’re not productive, to begin with. So we will have a… And almost every business that I know of, will have an ultra hybrid model for some period of time. And maybe, just maybe forever and this may continue on to enable people. I have many clients who have said this will transform the way we will hire people. We’ve proven that we can do this remotely and we’re going to have people work where we find the best talent for our needs. And I think as HR people we know there are cultural implications of that long term.

And lots of this great social experiment will be played out in the future, a lot of the implications of this, but this has been really… I don’t know anyone for who this hasn’t been a challenge in some ways, and there are unintended positives of this, like one of my colleagues said, “It’s like Father’s Day every day. My kids are all here and they’re a gift to me. And I get to have that present every day, which I normally would have had once a year.”

And so in the small victories of this adversity are usually life versus work. I know some people who have had to travel extensively now realize like, “Man, I can do this without all of those trips.” And so I think everybody talks about the future of work. I think the future of work if you made me make one prediction, it’s the ultra hybrid model.

Eileen:

Well, thank you for that, Steve. I do have a question as it relates to this, because as people are making decisions in this hybrid model, employees, customers, vendors, potential future employees are all looking at the decision making process behind this and the discernment on it. And my question to you is as these decisions are made and then moving forward, these decisions will also support future business strategies and how they’re going to be executed. What is your thought process around that? How decisions on how the company CEO, CHROs are working around this issue and how it will project into the future in other potential major decision-making?

Steve:

Well, a very interesting question. And I would say there’s that old quote that, “You don’t remember a leader by what they did, you remember a leader by how they made you feel.” And I would sort of adopting this one a little bit and say, long after this is over, people will remember what you did for them or what you did to them. And if you’re taking actions to create an environment where it’s expanding the inclusivity and opportunity for everybody everywhere, people are going to remember that. And if you’re constricting that, they’ll remember that too. And ultimately we know this big topic of employee experience and becoming an employer of choice. And people are going to vote with their feet when the economy recovers and when there’s more opportunity and with their discretionary effort.

So look, I know you guys are all about authenticity and transparency and spirituality, and at least the anchors of transparent and authentic communication on what decision you’re making, why you’re making it? You can’t please everybody if you have a picnic and you order a sub sandwich and you didn’t get steak or burger or somebody [crosstalk 00:14:34].

Eileen:

Right.

… don’t know the decision will be a perfect decision and no decision will be right for everybody. But if you are authentic and transparent about why you’re doing it and how you’re trying to optimize it for the greater good, then I think people at least get it and respect it. And look, we’ve watched hundreds, thousands of government, local, state, national, all try to make these decisions, and usually the thing that people get frustrated with is like, I don’t get it. This doesn’t feel transparent. I don’t really know if it’s authentic. It feels like there’s a hidden agenda. When is it over? How are you doing that? And I think making sure, like with all things if there’s input into the process so that people have some voice in that, will optimize the downstream discretionary effort and retention impact and engagement for years to come both positively or negatively. Does that make sense to you guys?

Alicia:

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Eileen:

Yes. Yes. It’s all about transparency and being authentic and people innately can feel it when you’re not.

Alicia:

Yes. Oh, immediately. Yeah. They can feel it. One of the key things that I heard you say a little earlier in the conversation about values, and we tend to use a lot, our value cards with clients and staff and I think it’s very important to understand how an individual uses their values within that leadership role. So my question to you would be, what are some of your top three values that you stand by every day as a leader, and specifically when you are communicating and connecting with other CEOs? What are those top three values that you kind of use to help gear you toward being more authentic in your conversations?

Steve:

Honesty.

Alicia:

Yeah.

Steve:

Optimism and help. I don’t know if that is a service, like the older you get, I think the more you realize satisfaction comes from making other people happy, not [crosstalk 00:16:54].

Alicia:

Right.

Eileen:

[inaudible 00:16:56] humankind.

Steve:

Yes. And serving others and that level of contribution is sometimes it’s hard to be super honest and be super helpful at the same time because you got to tell people some things they don’t want to hear and some things that are uncomfortable, but I think those would be a couple that is pretty important to me. And I went through an exercise. I’m a really religious person on both faith and goal-setting and I’ll tell you a story about that if you’re interested. But one of the exercises that I did this year was I came with a personal ethos. First, I had to look up what the word ethos was and make sure [crosstalk 00:17:55] but for those of you still [inaudible 00:17:58], you can probably know a lot more about it, and I said my ethos was… I wrote this down, guided by faith, put here to make a difference, humble and grateful, embracing adversity, be present, care more, invest in myself and be a world-class thinker.

So that was more than three, but I put that all in a mix and use that a little bit. And I have for many years, I don’t know if you guys were big fans of Tony Robbins but back in the day when I-

Eileen:

Oh, yes.

Steve:

… started, I spent my 200 bucks on the personal power tapes and I still think that he’s probably one of the more influential people, oddly enough in my life. But I had every New Year’s Eve, I love New Year’s Eve. I don’t go out. I stay in, and I do all my annual self-appraisal documents. And I have sort of an umbrella goal that I’ve had for many years, which is to live life fully and faithfully with using the gifts that God has given me to my fullest extent, and that kind of guides me. And I think the leaders that I’ve talked to over the last six months in moments of darkness, the people with faith have light and the people with fear have darkness. And so I know you guys really are passionate about your faiths and the role that plays and it’s amazing how many spiritual conversations I’ve had with people in the last six months that I never would have known where they stood on that.

Eileen:

I agree with you, Steve, more than ever people are bringing up God. They may have different followers, but God is the continuing familiarity with a lot of discussions.

Alicia:

Yes.

Eileen:

So, I’m so glad you shared that because many of the things you said were humble. All of those wonderful statements, how you live, their core values and beliefs, and they bloomed from somewhere. And thank you so much for sharing that. That’s very insightful. I’ve got goosebumps when you shared it because that’s what’s going to make our lives so much better, is living knowing that we have the light of God within us and that we are all children of God, no matter if you’re having a hard time, struggling, he’s always there.

Alicia:

Yes, yes. And I think to [crosstalk 00:20:57].

Steve:

[crosstalk 00:20:58] have to be perfect. Right?

Alicia:

Right. Exactly.

Steve:

We just have to try our best.

Alicia:

Yeah. And… Yeah. Yeah.

Steve:

And honestly, I think from an empathy standpoint, I just don’t know how people get through some of these challenges [crosstalk 00:21:17.

Alicia:

Yes.

Steve:

… not to bring up a really challenging topic, but also not to avoid it. We live in a world that has a lot of pain right now from the social justice stuff. And then almost every time I see some poor parents on TV, usually, they’re crying and at the same time, they’re praying. It’s really quite interesting if we could be as good in the quiet times as we are in the crisis, we’d raise up as humanity I think even more so. And so why does it take the worst to bring out the past? Usually, it does, but I think we can all… A lot of times when you have no words, people say, “Well, we just got to do better.” And we do get to do better.

Alicia:

Right.

Steve:

And Paul will help us do better if we lean on him because he’s there for us in that.

Alicia:

Yeah. And I think too, that for me, and I’m sure for Dr. Eileen yourself is we are living in a very dark time, but that spirituality, that connection to God really kind of helps you get through these dark moments, these unsure moments, those moments of insecurity or fear, you have to have something other than negative energy that comes from like you said, you hate to turn on the TV at some times because of that energy that comes from it. But you also have to be informed. And so you have to just pick and choose what moment, because you have to draw from some of that strength. And so, as we get ready to kind of close, and you have definitely given us a lot of wisdom, but we want you to leave us with some wisdom nuggets for our listeners and for Dr. Eileen and me, something that would help sustain or grow, or have a person who thinks about that next… What’s the next level, the next journey for that individual. So what are some words of wisdom?

Steve:

Well, I’ll try three on you. You can choose whichever one may be wisest. First and foremost, a few years ago, I used to think meditation was the biggest bunch of malarkey in the whole world. And anybody who was doing this mindfulness was working for Google and living in a world that I wasn’t living in. And somebody who I respected dearly said, “Let me tell you, you try this for 30 days and your life will change.” And I think maybe the best thing that I’ve done in the last two years is to do 10 minutes a day of Headspace. It’s a free app that you can get. It’s a guided meditation and neurologically it kind of rewires some of your brain pathways to just be calmer and more thoughtful and more mindful. And you can get way more into it than 10 minutes, but it’s been a game-changer, total game-changer, and you can do it anywhere, it doesn’t require much in terms of investment. So that’s number one.

Number two is I’m a big fan of the Tim Ferriss podcast. And Tim Ferriss talks about digital fasts. Just cut out all the noise around you. No social media, no TV. Some people say, “Well, you won’t miss a thing.” You do it for three or four days and I think if you had a blood pressure meter hooked up to you, you’d find your blood pressure just went down. Because so much of this stuff is self-induced toxins that we put into our mind and the whole garbage in equals garbage out and really be mindful of… A mentor of mine used to say, “Think about what you want to think about.” And it’s really hard to put that filter on. So you’re thinking about high-quality thoughts, because you need to be, especially in HR, you need to be a light. You need to be a beacon. You need to be energized. You need to have gas in your tank and your self-care at this point is so incredibly important.

Alicia:

Yes.

Steve:

And what depletes you is usually extraneous variables that you can control and kind of shut down. And so I kind of put that in a package called self-care and then up your praying quotient if that doesn’t work.

Alicia:

Yes.

Steve:

Because do you have the ultimate weapon in your toolbox in terms of dealing with hardship and that’s God and faith and lean on that. And I’m not a big quoter of the Bible, but it’s well been documented that give your troubles to God and he will give you the strength to get through them. And so for those people who are so inclined to believe that God is the answer, I’d say lean on your faith. That’s all you really need.

Alicia:

Yes.

Eileen:

Wow. Thank you so much for those words of wisdom.

Alicia:

Yes.

Eileen:

Yeah. That we can [inaudible 00:27:14] it’s wonderful.

Alicia:

Yes.

Eileen:

All three of them.

Alicia:

Yeah. It was packaged very well, Steve.

Steve:

Well, we’re all work in progress, right?

Alicia:

Yes. Yes.

Eileen:

Thank you for joining us on the Soul of a Leader Podcast. We are knighting a new way of leading with your soul and interviewing ordinary people with extraordinary impact. Thank you for listening to the stories of our leaders who will help and guide you on your leadership journey. For more information on our podcast, please visit our website at www.soulofaleader.com. Thank you for listening.